216: Solar Panel Scam?


Matt and Sean talk about whether or not the distrust in sustainable tech, like home solar panels, is based on fact or fiction.

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Watch the Undecided with Matt Ferrell episode, Are We Getting Scammed with Solar? https://youtu.be/BD7aCkLwR7U?list=PLnTSM-ORSgi6ObB8Ao0IpRhOgYO27wbSd

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On today’s episode of Still To Be Determined, we’re talking about the arguments people use against the use of sustainable tech by other people.

Hi everybody. As usual, I’m Sean Ferrell. I’m a writer. I write some sci fi. I write some stuff for kids. And I also now write some D& D fantasy adventures. So I’ll be telling you more about that at the end. But I’m just generally curious about technology. And luckily for me, my brother is that Matt of Undecided with Matt Ferrell, which takes a look at emerging tech and its impact on our lives.


how are you today? Doing pretty well. Pretty good weekend. Nice weather. Parents were over.


gave you a call. Yes, you did. Yeah. How was your weekend?

My weekend is good. It, as, um, just mentioned, it is beautiful outside here in New York. The spring has finally sprung and that removes a giant gray rock that had been sitting on my chest for the past two months.

I have been clamoring for, I’d like to go outside without a jacket, please. And so we’re finally there. And with that, yesterday, I also received a, uh, nice call from you and the parental units who were sitting in your living room. And I’ll be honest, you had a little bit of a shocked look on your face, like, I can’t believe they’re here.

I can’t believe they found the house. But I’m glad you all had a nice visit. And yeah, it was good. A nice weekend. This week we’re gonna be talking about Matt’s most recent, which is his response to a lot of the responses that he sees in his comments along the lines of everything you’re doing. is a scam.

The sustainable tech, the solar panel costs, like all of this stuff is smoke and mirrors. And before we get into that, I always like to take a look at the comments in previous episodes, so we can keep the conversation going. As we start off with Undecided, then we move into Still to be Determined, but I don’t like the conversations to just drop off there, so let’s circle back to the comments.

From our earlier episode, 215. On Perovskite, the future of solar, there were some comments like this, who Sergio de Villa Martinez, who said, first of all, he said that he’s happy to have found these podcasts, which thank you, Sergio, for finding them. And he said, it makes my heart leap with joy every time I see a video in particular about Perovskites.

I did my Chem E capstone project on the industrial scale production of perovskites and have kept a close eye on any developments that can bridge the band gap of the material’s stability. I made a slight deviation away from the R& D done in labs toward operating a solar EPC company for solar panels, primarily because I wanted to personally know what defines an appealing panel from the perspective of the customers who would be buying them and the technicians who would who’d be installing them.

Indeed, the audience and the topics of these podcasts are a great intersection of the various key players with a stake in the sustainable development of renewable energy solutions. I thought that that was a great, uh, kind of wrap up of what your perspective on these topics is. Where the rubber meets the road, where the consumer is actually saying, okay, I’ve taken this thing and I’ve put it on my home and your coverage.

It seems very balanced between looking a few steps ahead. What’s the breaking news, but also what is the application for me today? And I’m curious with the Perovskites and with some of the other topics you’ve had that have been looking a little bit further down the road. Is there one that stands out for you that you’ve done recently?

Let’s say in the past four or five months, is there a video topic that you’ve had where you’re like, I think we’re just. Baby steps away from it actually being on the market.

Uh, well, first I that comment was awesome. And it’s also really cool to hear instead of just jumping and doing a solution, he’s actually participating in the market to see what’s actually needed and what would be the best solution before he goes in and does it.

Yeah, that’s user experience design right there. That’s awesome. I love that. Um, To answer your question, in the past few months, there was a, there’s been a trend of videos. I wouldn’t say it’s one thing. It’s thermal energy storage, uh, to me is like a potential boom is about to happen on grid scale and potentially even in homes.

Uh, it’s a, it’s a aspect of energy storage we don’t really think about, but we all have in our house right now and we all have hot water in our houses and that is a form of energy battery, but there’s. Uh, new systems coming to market that will allow you to kind of squirrel away that heat and then reuse it to heat your space, not just your water, um, to use it in different ways, uh, to optimize how we’re using energy and when we’re pulling from the grid or generating ourselves versus when we actually need to use it.

It’s that any kind of energy storage system where you’re disconnecting between production to when you actually need to use it, that seems to be an area that to me, that’s super exciting and it feels like we’re right on the cusp. of that really starting to take off and finding new ways to do thermal energy storage pretty much everywhere.

Um, it’s just one of those, why weren’t we doing this all along kind of things? It’s like a big facepalm of, yeah, they’ve, we knew thousands of years ago how to like store heat into bricks that you put around your fire. It’s like, why aren’t, why aren’t we doing this kind of stuff everywhere? It’s just obvious.

It seems so obvious to me.

Well, I think that the answer to that is a little bit like a fire gap built into a city. It just probably takes two generations to not do a thing for the doing of that thing to be completely wiped out of cultural traditions. And just nobody’s sitting down in a classroom and saying, you take the hot rock, you put it by the fire, you take the hot rock, you move it somewhere else.

It moves that heat to that new place. Nobody’s doing that in the classroom setting. And as we moved from probably hearthstone homes, where it was Commonplace to have one central location that would be heated with a fireplace and you would take bed warming irons and place them near the fire and then take those with you to bed and put them under your bed to provide some heat under your bed.

Once you start centralizing heating systems and you start transmitting heat in other ways, salesmanship says, No longer do you have to carry that stupid hot iron from the fireplace to your bed. Now you’ve got this and a couple of generations go by and everybody forgets about it. And I think that that was also evident in our use of fossil fuels like gasoline.

Which became, at a certain point, it was so cheap that the argument was literally like, why would you bother with trying to conserve energy? It’s so cheap. It’s so cheap and easily available and just burn it and hooray. And then a couple of generations go by and suddenly everybody goes, you know what? It’s getting pricier.

It’s getting cheaper. I’m all

that ideas. And there’s, but there’s also the intermittency of most renewables. Like when you’re talking about wind and solar, it’s like, they don’t produce 24 hours a day, seven days a week at the same level. They fluctuate. Sun’s only out during the day. So it’s like, I think that’s another reason why we’re looking at this stuff again.

It’s like, I’m producing way more energy than I need in the middle of the day. It’d be great if I could store that away for overnight. It’s like, it’s creating, it’s creating the need. to try to find solutions for that again. But at the same time, it’s just one of those, ah, it’s so frustrating that we had decent ideas thousands of years ago.

And it’s like, Hey, I got a radical idea today of just looking back at this whole thing again.

In the comments, there were also some people returning to our conversation about analog computers, which I appreciate because I loved that conversation and I love the tech. There was a couple of comments from Joe P.

who jumped in to say a couple of different things. One was pointing out that the USS Texas which predated the USS Missouri. And we were talking about the USS Missouri in our last conversation about it’s guns having analog computers behind them. And he points out the USS Texas predated the USS Missouri by 30 years, had the same analog computers and earlier computer model as well.

Texas was also the first US Navy battleship to carry radar and it’s analog systems. So that’s another good reminder of. All the different, uh, layers to this. He also jumped in to like kind of raise the flag about the promises that we continue to hear. Perovskites coming soon. Trademark. Humans will go to Mars in 2010.

Solid state batteries will power your next smartphone. Fusion power will solve the world’s power needs. Yes, Joe, there’s lots of promises being made all the time. I would point out that most of those boil down to a editor or headline writer getting a little too overzealous with some information that has been promised.

Although the humans will go to Mars. That absolutely has been promised again and again and again by everybody from NASA to Elon Musk. So yeah, yeah. We are becoming a newer tool a little bit of

that, I


I was gonna say it is, it is kind of a marketing problem, not a technology problem. It’s like these, these things, fusion power as a whole, I’m putting, taking fusion power, I’m setting to the side in this comment, the stuff that he’s citing is going to happen.

It’s just a matter of when it’s going to happen. And then when you bring fusion power back into the equation, it’s like, A lot of people would still say that’s not going to happen. I would argue that probably is going to happen. If it happens in our lifetimes, that’s the giant question, but it’s one of those.

You don’t know what you need to do in these technologies when you’re, when you’re trying to bring them to market. So in the lab, solid state batteries, we know how to do this. Oh my God, it’s really hard to manufacture these at any kind of volume that’s going to make any kind of profit. It’s really hard to ramp this stuff up.

So it’s taking a while for that to happen. I actually have a video that, uh, is examining that. So on solid state batteries specifically. So stay tuned.

There was also a comment from Barbarudra who said to point out how the public seems to not be patient for newer technologies. And I think this is the flip side, the Joe P’s comment.

It is. To point out how the public seems to not be patient for newer technologies to come out. Something that has stuck with me. It’s something that my professor said years ago. Society is not as smart as we think we are. I love that. Just the simplicity of that as a bumper sticker. Change and advancements take time.

It’s just how life works aside from accidental breakthroughs, but we aren’t all exceptions to the rule. And I think that that is a good reminder that patience on the small scale. Turns into frustration on the large scale where you end up with abandoning of an idea, abandoning of a path of research simply because people are looking for a short term payback.

And that’s especially true when it comes to a lot of these researchers who Maybe oversell to the media because they have to keep grant dollars flowing into their research. They know I’m 10 years away, potentially, from seeing a thing, but they have to sell the big meaty headline of we’re now growing human ears on rats, simply because if you don’t say that to the headline writer, They’re not going to get a grant the next year.

So we’re kind of caught in that thinking all the time.

It creates a context breakdown. I was going to say that creates a context breakdown. That’s why the public is always feeling like we’re getting lied to because it’s like the stuff that’s being talked about is real. It is happening. But from a public perception, because of the way it’s being said in the media, it sounds like it’s going to happen next year when it’s actually 10 years away. So there’s a, just a context breakdown.

I also wonder how much of that kind of goes back to how humans, how we’re built from a processing of information perspective.

99 percent of the people hearing a headline are not going to be able to puzzle through the logic of the claims of the scientists. We end up in a position where we’re almost having to operate on faith. And we’re seeing an error right now where pushback against truth and science as real and objective is maybe a manifestation of a limitation in us to be able to say, Oh, here’s X, Y, and Z and have somebody else understand what X, Y, and Z mean, because we’ve reached a stage where.

Years ago, somebody built a combustion engine and demonstrated it. And with just probably an afternoon of explanation could probably demonstrate how the combustion engine worked to people who had no idea what it was doing. Now you’re talking about, let me tell you about how perovskites work and let me tell you how they produce energy from light.

And it begins to be a lot of like, you’re going to have to trust me on faith. I’m going to use a metaphor. I’m going to use an analogy here. I’m not going to be able to get into the details because the details are really kind of like weird. And we end up in a place where it’s very difficult to hear what researchers are working on.

And have a fundamental understanding of what it means and how it might work. And yeah, I just wonder if that aids the gap that you’re talking about, the contextual gap of, Oh, absolutely. Is there a way I wonder that that could be changed other than like pumping tons more money into our education system and improving our educated public from Erfquake.

There was this comment about Analog Computing and I thought it was a good place to end on. In the Godzilla 2014 movie, when the eventual, but nobody could tell for sure, lead character

Hold on, hold on. You almost lost me with I love your username by the way. Erfquake?

Erfquake, yes.

E R F. Erfquake is fantastic.

And then the first thing is about the Godzilla movie. That just broke me. I was like, where is this going? I haven’t seen this comic yet.

In the Godzilla 2014 movie, when the eventual, but nobody could tell for sure, lead character was this super important guy, the only one left who could operate a quote, Analog nuke, and the thing had a cluster of spur gears under the access panel as if it were some steampunk grandfather clock.

Well, that was it for me. I couldn’t comprehend such technological ignorance. I sound like a Sheldon saying this, but beyond the implausibility of a giant lizard stopping around, this one aspect really bugged the crap out of me.

I love that comment, Erfquake. I’m right there with you. I also can go to a movie about a giant lizard that shoots lasers out of its mouth and be bugged by the fact that, wait a minute, you’re telling me that their phones can operate from the center of the earth? I’m, I’m also right there with you in that sheldoning.

So thank you for the comment. On now to our conversation. Yeah, that’s a good one. On now to our conversation about Matt’s most recent, are we getting scammed with solar? This episode dropped on April 23rd, 2024. And Matt mentioned, uh, offline that he was motivated to do this because of the constant refrain over the years of people showing up in the comments and saying, like, buddy, you’re, you’re throwing money out the window.

This isn’t real. And I, first of all, want to compliment your Video, because nothing that you did came across as defensive. You came across as like, okay, if we’re going to treat those comments as the beginning of a conversation, this is what the conversation turns into. So hat tip to you for providing information instead of defending a stance.

There’s that. The comments seem to boil down to people taking that tone. And treating it as the starting point, which I appreciated. Everybody kept an even keel in approaching the discussion so that there were comments like Skyler Bolerbank, who said, so far, it seems that the people who are saying solar is a scam because it’s not worth it for me, that’s not how scams work.

And I wanted to like raise that as a starting point, because it goes back to our repeated refrain of context is key. And it does seem like a lot of people who say, well, solar doesn’t work because it gets dark at night. You’re not producing energy. Like it goes back to what you said about you make excess energy and you’re looking for ways to hold onto the energy for times, other times of the day where you might need it.

Somebody else who maybe is in a part of the country where energy is far cheaper than where you are, or they don’t have a concern about sustainability, they don’t see that as a priority in their life, or they live in a part of the country or world where use of solar is trickier because of where they are on the planet, where their house is situated.

If you’re living in a valley, Solar is going to be trickier simply because you put the panels on your roof, but if you live between two large peaks If you don’t get direct sun or even much sun during certain times of the year, yeah, what are you doing that for? So I wanted to open it up to you, Matt. Is there a aspect of sustainability that you have?

Eschewed for yourself because it doesn’t fit your context. Is there something that is available today where you know other people are jumping at it, but for you it’s like, yeah, that’s not for me because it doesn’t work for my context.

An easy one would be wind, wind energy for your home. Uh, 99. 9 percent of people should not be doing that.

Uh, It’s, it doesn’t work for me, my, my situation, but I would never say it doesn’t work for everybody, even though I just said 99. 9%. And the reason I say that is it’s, it’s just like, it’s one of those, when you look at how turbines work and the scale they have to be to really get it the, to make the numbers work, the finances work, um, where you live may make it.

Just not un infeasible with the permitting and what you’d have to do to even put it on your property. Some places wouldn’t even let you do it. So it’s like, there’s just, for me, I, I would love the idea of diversifying my wind, my, my energy generation, so I’m not just solar. Maybe I could have a little wind turbine in my yard, but at the same time, it’s like, I don’t get enough wind in my area.

I don’t, you know, it’s, I don’t think my, uh, where I live would like me constructing a 60 foot tall tower with a turbine on top of it in my backyard. Don’t think that would go over very well. Um, so there’s a whole bunch of reasons why for me it doesn’t make sense, but if you live on a large plot of property or a farm somewhere or someplace where you have a lot of acreage where you can just construct one next to your garage or something, it’s like, go for it.

But it’s like, for me, not so much. Um, and to, to, to build on the scam comment though, I have an analogy. It would be like going to, to a used car lot and buying a used car from a really seedy car salesman, driving off the lot the next day, it just dies on the road. And then you getting out of the car and go, cars are a scam.

It’s like, no, you got ripped off by that one guy who sold you this bad lemon. You can’t like say solar is a scam because you had a bad experience with a solar installer or solar is a scam because look how expensive it is. And my electricity rates make it make no sense for me. It’s, you can’t. Generalize in that way.

That’s the, that’s the big problem I have with those comments.

There was a comment from Provo Juggler who said, as an engineer, I really appreciate your breakdown of different renewable energy sources. There is a quote from one of your video that sums it up as it’s not about getting a silver bullet. It’s about choosing the bullet appropriate for the situation, right?

These videos have helped me learn and understand more about the world of renewables. Thank you for the comment, Provo. And. I would say he talks about the wide array of different solutions that you’ve talked about in your videos, opening up his understanding of the wider world of renewables. What are some of the ones that you’ve discussed in your videos that have been most surprising to you?

This is a little bit like saying, are there two or three videos that you’d like to point back to? to suggest that people revisit because that’s kind of what the question asks. Were there things that you have done research on, made videos about that still kind of surprise you as like, I still can’t believe that that’s out there, that people are working on that or that it’s real.

Mechanical energy storage systems are the one that’s still making me kind of go flywheels. Uh, like, uh, flywheels, um, lifting and dropping weights, you know, for storing energy. Um, one of my favorites was elevators. Like I visited a, a, a very green hotel, the Hotel Marcel in Connecticut. And as we’re walking through the hotel, he’s like, Oh yeah.

And we know we, um, take, we actually put heavy things in our elevators and put them at the top in the evenings. And then we just, you know, Drop them and it, you know, basically generates energy and we use that and I was like, he just said it as an aside and kept going and I was like, wait, wait, wait. Can you pause for a second?

You just kind of made my brain melt by you’re just using your existing elevator system as a gigantic battery. It’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s pretty, yeah, it’s pretty easy. It’s like, okay, stuff like that to me is just one of those. I still kind of, I’m like, shocked that, It’s why are we not doing that more often?

Why is that happening more places? And flywheels, like let’s spin something really fast and then we can slowly get the energy back out of it. The ideas of all these different kind of mechanical systems I just find fascinating and really kind of, it’s, it’s just really cool that they’re an actual thing that’s

being used out there.

Flywheels are the ones that I want to see most Like, just like populating the rooftops of New York. And not because I think that that’s a practical place to put them. I just think they would look really, really cool.

But the most surprising thing to me when I did a video on flywheels was there’s companies that are trying to make them more like, here’s a flywheel for your home.

Here’s a flywheel for a grid storage system. But today they’re already in use and they’re used a lot in like data centers and IT systems as a form of energy backup, like a UPS kind of power supply kind of a thing. Mm-Hmm. . And I remember it got caught so many messages after that video came out. Like, yeah, I work in this data center and we have systems like that in place right now.

And it’s like, it just, once again, this is like. I can’t believe this is actually out there. People are using this stuff today. It’s just really cool stuff. It feels

like the, the dam bursts, the valley is flooding, the power goes out because the dam power production is ended and there’s a computer center where the lights dim and go out.

They’re running off of batteries for a few minutes and somebody’s like, pull the lever, the flywheels start spinning and actually produce the energy to back up. That is pretty, pretty cool. Sorry, I just had a nerd moment there, couldn’t help myself. There was this comment from Liz Kadamy who said, I’m not speaking to solar, but to being ripped off and DIY in general.

A week ago, I added ductless mini split heat pumps to the duplex I own and live in. One system for each flat. I got my estimates and started researching. I found out that the exact equipment quoted in the bids cost less than 40 percent of the total bid. Did I feel the HVAC companies were ripping me off?

No. Why? Because first, I may be a tech geek and might have been researching this stuff since I was a teen in the early 1970s. Yes, I’m a little old boomer lady. Because I’m old, also in declining health and living alone, there’s no way I could physically do this as a DIY. And the duplex was built in 1900 with old electrical, lathe and plaster walls, and fiber cement siding.

I don’t have experience dealing with any of that. I’m I learned well from written instructions, but not nearly as well as if I had training courses from the manufacturer. I could go on, on the install day, I had five installers show up, all highly trained with these certifications. Six hours later, both systems were up and running, except the smart home controller on my unit.

That’s where my DIY skills took over. While the installer was reading the 58 page PDF, I started playing around with the app on my iPad, got everything connected, then taught myself, taught him how I did it. I’m a professional web developer and help guru. Setting up a smart home controller is easy for me.

That’s awesome. Conclusion, before saying, if you don’t DIY, you’re being ripped off, check all the confounding factors. I would never install my own solar or heat pumps. I would also never pay anyone to paint my home interiors. So the comment I just shared, I wanted to share that because it presents a great, uh, Just, we’re all coming into these things with a certain understanding of how much of our lives we can manage and control directly and how much we’re going to need assistance on.

It goes back again, once again, I guess the refrain of this episode is context. Here we have, uh, our little old boomer lady. Thank you so much Liz Kadamay for jumping into the comments and I hope you’ll come back and watch us again. She knows how to do certain things really, really well. So she teaches herself how to use the software and teaches the installer how she did a thing so that next time he’s dealing with it, he’ll have that experience, which is terrific.

But she knows I need those five people walking in with certification who are going to do all this stuff. And do it top to bottom, even though the cost of the product itself is maybe only 40 percent of the total estimate. It is worth it. I wanted to ask you, Matt, does that mesh with your experience in your home building?

And I don’t mean building the home, but the things that were put into that home that you use on a daily basis, did you have the same experience? And where was that line for you of, This is the side of it that I can do myself. This is where I know this is my forte. And are there things that you, I have a follow up question beyond that, which is, are there certain DIY things that you wish you did know and that you would like to learn and maybe will learn in the future?

Oh, that’s a good question. Um, yes, there are definitely things in my house that mirror exactly what Liz said. Uh, like the HVAC system, I’m not going to install an HVAC system. I understand the basics of how it works, the actual mechanical, like, putting stuff together. I could probably figure out how to do.

Do I want to spend a week of my time or two weeks of my time fumbling my way through it for the very first time and maybe screwing stuff up along the way because it’s my first time? Or do I want to spend some money and have a professional come in and do it in a day and it’s going to get done right?

Yeah, I find so much more value in that. Exactly the same thing with my solar. It’s like, I’m not, I’m kind of afraid of heights. I do not want to be on my roof putting racking systems up, attaching solar panels, even though I can physically do it and I understand how to do it. I have zero desire to do that.

So I understand I am paying a premium for that service and it’s worth it to me. There are things that I would like to learn more about and do. Um, I’m, I’m, my background’s in technology. The tech sector, and I’m very familiar with computers and servers, but I still had my electrician wire, like, wire all the Ethernet cables to my house.

And then I had him terminate them, even though I could have done it myself, just cause he was doing it in one go. So they kind of did it in one go, but then I came in and I finished it all out myself instead of having him do it for me so, it’s like there were aspects I picked up because I’m very comfortable doing it.

I’ve done it numerous times, so I would consider myself an enthusiast who’s got experience doing it, so I had no problem doing it. Um, but on the solar front, I do, would like to have experience actually doing it. Um, just to kind of experience what it’s actually like to do, um, and to have like a little off grid setup.

And it’s actually going to happen because I’m getting a shed installed in my backyard. And I came up with the idea of like, occasionally I have companies send me things. I know this is going to be such a YouTuber problem here. I have people send me things that I don’t necessarily ask for. Um, and I get them and there was a company that sent me a couple solar panels and I’ve been, they’ve been in my garage for years and I’ve never done anything with them.

So I’m going to take these solar panels, I’m going to buy a racking system and I’m going to install it on top of the shed and I have these like eco flow batteries and I’m just going to like basically make my shed a little off grid shed and I’ll install led lights inside of it so that it’s fully electrified.

I have electric lawn equipment. And my goal is to have the system be able to generate enough of its own energy that it can actually charge the batteries that are used in the lawnmower and the leaf blowers and stuff like that inside the shed. Very cool. So it’s like, I want to make it a nice little off grid setup.

And so for me, it’s going to be a little playground for doing a solar install myself. Right. I’ve always wanted to do it, but I’ve never wanted to climb on top of a house to do it. I’m totally willing to climb on top of a shed that’s eight feet high. Right. And I can just get on the ladder and it will be really easy for me to do.

That’s a lot more. In my wheelhouse. Um, so I’m looking forward to doing that cause I do, I do want that experience.

Yeah. That sounds like a really fun little project. And you’re describing it as an off grid thing, which then that opens up the avenues for like, does it become your little man cave where you’re suddenly out there installing?

Like, well, if I’m out here this much, you know, like working on this thing, I need a little sound system. So I got to put in some speakers. Well, if I’m out here this much, I might as well put in a flat screen of some sort. So I can watch things off of like, The Wi Fi and like, you know, suddenly you’re like putting up a little panel on the wall and well, if I’m out here this much, I might as well have a computer.

It’s all living off grid

and it would be a

man cave you could only use during the day because it’s off grid and it works off of solar. Thank you so much everybody, uh, for your comments. As you can tell, they really do drive the content of this program, and they also help steer the content of The Mothership, which is Undecided with Matt Ferrell.

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And if you’d like to support us more directly, you can click the join button on YouTube. You can also go to stilltbd. fm, click the become a supporter button there. Both those allow you to throw coins at our heads. We appreciate the welts. And then once the bruises heal, we get down to the heavy, heavy business of talking about Matt building a man cave in a shed.

Also, I mentioned at the beginning of the episode that I am a writer. I have some sci fi. I have some stuff for kids. I’ve also just recently started a Kickstarter for a D& D adventure that I’m working on. So if you’re interested in supporting that, I don’t know what the Venn diagram overlap between tech nerd and D& D nerd is, but I’m guessing it’s a number above zero.

So if anybody out there is interested in that. The link to the Kickstarter will be in the show notes below, and I invite you to drop in and take a look. And if you like what you see, please do subscribe. Thank you so much, everybody, for taking the time to watch or listen, and we’ll talk to you next time.

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