255: Ice Source Heat Pump?

 On today’s episode of still to be determined, we’re talking about ice source heat pumps. That’s right. I now sound like an AI. Welcome everybody to still to be determined. This of course is the followup podcast to Undecided with Matt Ferrell, which takes a look at emerging tech and its impact on our lives.

Hi everybody. I’m Sean Ferrell. I’m a writer. I write some sci fi and I write some stuff for kids. And I’m just generally curious about technology. Luckily for me, my brother is that Matt behind Undecided with Matt Ferrell. Matt, we are here today to talk about something that’s going to break my brain, but we’re going to talk about it anyway.

And in fact, we’re not really going to talk about it too in depth ourselves. We’re going to share the long form interview that Matt did with a couple of researchers, but we’ll get into that in a moment for right now, Matt, how are you? As we sit here in a balmy mid February.

For those of you don’t know, we live in the Northeast and it’s. It’s cold, Sean, it’s very

cold. Yeah. We’ve gotten comments before with, uh, from people saying, why do you talk about the weather? Wait, like, don’t do that. But I, as we started to record just a few minutes ago, I shared with Matt, I am sitting in my living room, recording this.

My living room is a basement. I’m sitting on a heating pad. I have a blanket on my lap and just a few moments ago. I shifted in my seat to move the blanket and provided myself with a static shock that not only went into my body, it went into my earphones, into my ears, and made my entire computer blink.

The screen went like that, the light glimmered. So, if partway through this discussion I suddenly start babbling. It’s because I’ve just given myself electroshock therapy. So what are we here to talk about today? Well, we’re sharing the long form interview that Matt did with doctors Ramin Mehdipour and Professor Seamus Garvey from the University of Nottingham.

They are doing research into ice source heat pumps. As I mentioned at the top of the video, this is going to make it sound like I am an AI. These are words that don’t usually go together in this order. Yes. The idea that they’re working on is an idea for reusing the United Kingdom’s natural gas pipe network to deliver non potable water into heat pumps for heat.

The coolest part of the idea, that’s a pun written by my brother. The coolest part of the idea is just that they turn water into ice in order to make the heat. I have to lie down now. So, here we happily share Matt’s long form conversation with the aforementioned researchers Mehdipour and Garvey.

So thank you both of you for taking the time to talk to me today about the research that you’re doing around, uh, this very novel approach for reusing gas pipes and water and creating kind of like a ice sludge that comes out of the system. It’s a very novel approach that you guys are doing. So before we kind of kick off into like what that is, I would like to know a little bit more about both of you. Uh, could you kind of like, uh, let’s start with you, Seamus.

Could you kind of introduce yourself and how you got into this kind of line of work?

Yeah, I’ll keep it really brief, uh, Matt. I’m a mechanical engineer. I’ve been a professor of dynamics for 25 years now. And in 2005, I started to get interested in energy storage. And then I realized that all energy storage is expensive and you have to be very clear about what energy storage cannot do in order to be clear about where its place is.

And one of the big areas of uncertainty around that is what will be done in connection with heating. And so I just started to have a look at this and I happened to be at a conference and I’ll tell you more about that. But, uh, basically I’m driven by energy storage and that’s still a

core driver. Well, what about you, Ramin?

What’s, what’s your background? How did you end up doing this kind of work?

My background, I am researching into the renewable energy. Working in the power plant, solar systems and now we are researching about the heating system heat pumps and new fuel in the renewable energy such as the hydrogen or ammonia.

So let’s get into the kind of like nitty gritty of this because one of the first questions is what was the inspiration around the solution you guys came up with? Like, what was the impetus for this?

It’s a combination of ideas from different places. So one of those is a recognition that we have a gas network in the UK.

That’s probably unlike anywhere else in the world. We have 23 million homes in the UK connected to a gas network and we somehow have to stop burning natural gas. So that was one thing in the back of minds there. And the second, uh, key element of it is that I heard a fantastic presentation by an academic from China, from Guangzhou at a conference in 2019.

And it was all about what he called latent heat pumping, which is turning ice into a slurry, sorry, turning water into an ice slurry and sucking the heat out of the water. And really the, the thing that we’re working on now is some marriage together of those two things. So I didn’t invent the idea of, uh, making it nice slurry.

That’s a great idea, but it’s only good if you’ve got a place to get the water from. And the magic here was putting those two things together I think.

Before I working in the ice storage at home, I’m working in the ice storage. Ice storage is the common, uh, method for storing and energy storing in the, uh, hot country and this method, uh, producing the ice and storing the ice, for example, in the, uh, in the, uh, in the morning time, in the hot time, uh, in the, sorry, in the midnight, in the cold situation, and using the, this ice for, uh, for in the hot situation, hot, uh, time, And, uh, I’m working in the ice storage.

And after that, I moved to the UK and was familiar with this kind of heating system, ice cold heating system. And after that, I am working ice cold heat pumps, and Professor Garvey suggested we can transfer the water with the pipe, and we developed a solution for a heating system.

So for people I know a lot of people who watch my channel already familiar with the basics of a heat pump Is this moving heat from one thing to another and you’re kind of amplifying that heat in the process and most people are familiar with air source heat pumps Can you kind of walk through the mechanics of exactly how this system would work?

It’s almost exactly the same as an air source heat pump. So a heat pump takes Heat from a cold place adds a little bit of electricity to it, and then it gives you all the heat that you took from the cold place, plus the electricity as heat into the warmer place. Um, and the, the goodness of a heat pump, the coefficient of performance, the multiplier you get depends on how cold it is where you are collecting the heat.

And what we are doing with this is making sure that the place we collect the cold heat is not too cold. Because there’s a lot of unclear thinking about this, the thing that really matters about heat pumps is not the average ratio between how much heat do you get out and how much electricity you put in.

That’s called a coefficient of performance. But what’s really going to matter in the future is how well does a heat pump perform when it’s really cold outside. When it’s really cold outside, air source heat pumps are trying to suck heat out of a thing that’s already quite cold and then they have to work harder in order to do that.

And ultimately it can get so cold outside that you essentially can’t suck any heat from outside. The only thing you can do is use electricity to make heat for inside. So it’s solving a very particular problem, which is making sure that the heat pump will work well when it’s cold outside.

Right. In my house I have a geothermal heat pump system. So it’s ground source. It’s a similar idea where it’s like it’s pulling the temperature gradient is very narrow because it’s under in the earth, six feet down. It’s always like 50 degrees Fahrenheit here. So you can, it’s always that. Never changes within a few degrees year round where air source is having to deal with it might be two degrees Fahrenheit or it might be 90 degrees Fahrenheit and it has to deal with a much wider temperature gradient.

So this system that you’re designing sounds a lot closer to a geothermal system as far as where it’s pulling the heat from something, something that’s more consistent.

Absolutely is it’s it’s it’s 100 percent consistent. In fact, we would propose that if the air outside is warmer than a few degrees, you should actually use the air as the source of heat because it will actually perform better to use the air.

What what this, this idea does is it protects you against having a very poor coefficient of performance when the air outside is cold. So you’ve got it exactly right. A ground source heat pump is, of course, ideal if you can think of it before you build your house. And I don’t know whether you did that, but if you think of this before you build your house, then you can actually draw from the ground right underneath your house and suck it up.

And you don’t need any more land. A big problem is, though, that we’ve come to this problem of how do we heat all the houses in the UK? After they’ve already got heating solutions, because we know that in 2050, this country will be net zero. I hope it will be net zero before then, but definitely by 2050, we will be net zero and the 80 percent of all the houses that we will have in 2050 are here today.

We’re not building most of the houses again. They’re here now. So we, we need solutions that can retrofit into existing housing stock. And this is. This has the potential to do that.

So this is actually one of the reasons why I really was excited to talk to you guys, because I live in Massachusetts and in Framingham, Massachusetts, there’s a pilot project they’re doing, the utility is doing where they’ve installed a district ground source heat pump system where they drilled, you know, like dozens of wells did one massive loop, and then they’re feeding that loop to all these homes in the neighborhood and businesses. So it’s this district heating system installed, which was a massive undertaking to do that work where what you’re talking about is, okay, we already have infrastructure in there.

There’s already these pipes in the ground. Can we reuse these in an intelligent way? So I’m assuming that is to you the key here of. What is the most practical easiest way to get better heat pumps into people’s homes? I’m assuming that’s

the Absolutely spot on so We’re engineers. We’re not scientists. So we’re not interested in discovering new laws of physics. We’re just interested in finding the lowest cost solutions and we have an asset in the ground that is probably worth more than 10 billion.

Let’s call it in your currency. Um, you know, it probably costs more than that to put it in. And if it’s not carrying natural gas, you know, it’s, we should try to sweat that asset for something good. And, and I’d like to, to point out that it’s a strange, it’s a very odd solution in some respects, because in actual fact, we collect the heat that goes into the house.

After the ice slurry goes away from the house, the ice slurry recovers the heat from the drains after it’s left your

house. So, in fact,

it’s not just the pipes that can bring the water in that we’re using a bit of. Our ground source is the drainage system that remelts the ice after we throw it away.

So is this is obviously, is this a closed loop system or is it an open, it’s open.

It’s okay, and so that’s an important point, there’s another dimension to this, but we haven’t touched on the water that we should deliver in this way should be non drinking water at the moment.

The UK is quite unusual, I think, because the only water supply in any house is drinking water. So we flush our toilets with drinking water, and we wash our cars with drinking water, we water our gardens with drinking water. And if we have a source of non drinking water, drinking water costs money and energy to make pure enough to drink.

Um, we actually can have a secondary benefit to putting water, uh, through these pipes, but it is, it is, um, open, open loop, if you like. So we do take in water and we do push it down the drain and I, I know what your next question will be.

We’ll go ahead.

Well, I’d like to ask myself the question on your behalf then.

Go ahead and ask yourself the question. How

much water would that be on a really, really cold day? Yes, it could be a couple of tons of water in a, in a reasonable sized house. Um, initially, when you hear that number, you’re inclined to think, well, that’s quite a big number.

Um, and of course you have to check whether it’s realistic to pull a couple of tons of water through the gas pipes. And essentially it is, uh, I mean, if you’ve got a whole day to do it. Um, if you’ve ever turned on your bath and walked away from it for a day, uh, expect a few tons of water in your, in your bathroom, essentially, and the, the, the gas pipes are not not very different from the 20.

We have 22 millimeters. I guess that’s 3 quarters of an inch pipe if you like are used for baths. It’s about the same size of pipe that’s used to deliver water to your bath. So the flow rates are not a problem for the pipe and the supply of water is quite an interesting question then it follows naturally from that.

Do do you have a ton of water per household, um, at these times and the simple answer is yes, we do. You know, in the UK, we have very wet winters. We’ve, we’ve been through a couple of storms. We’ve got, in fact, we’ve got a storm sent over from the USA. Thank you very much. Storm is coming tonight and it’s going to be here tomorrow.

And, you know, it’s, it’s going to dump on every property, probably tens of tons of water. Yeah, we have no shortage of water in the winter. And in the summer, we don’t need to freeze. We don’t need to, uh, heat our homes.

So you kind of look at this as almost like a hybrid system to existing systems that might already be in a home where they work in tandem, where this is kind of like backing you up in the super cold of the winter.

Okay. Um, from a homeowner’s perspective, would there be anything different that they would see in their home using this, or is this going to be just like a, like, like my, my ground source system? I don’t have a condensing unit on the outside of my house. I just have a, inside my mechanical room, I just have like a, this pump system that is cycling the loop and it looks like a normal piece of HVAC equipment.

I’m assuming it’s the same thing with this.

It’s the same thing. So we would recommend that you really had the option to take the heat from the air or the water. So probably there’s another heat exchanger tucked in there. Um, the water heat exchanger is, is, well, you know, it’s not, it’s not very small. The one we’ve made at the moment is not particularly small, but I think we can make it smaller.

Uh, so I think it can basically fit inside something that you would just think is about the same as a normal heat pump unit. Heat pump units at the moment are actually a little big, uh, you know, compared to a gas boiler, a heat pump box. It’s quite a bit bigger than a gas boiler. If you, so a homeowner, you know, thinking about a heat pump solution would definitely be thinking, well, where am I going to put that?

But as soon as he had thought of a place that he could put a heat pump, if you then said, okay, well, you’ve got to make it slightly bigger to accommodate this extra bit. I don’t think that would be a, it would not be a significant increase compared to the increase from the gas boiler to the heat pump.

In the, it’s not a hybrid.

In the air sourced homes, it has a smaller evaporator and we remove the fan. This system is smaller comparing the, um, for example, air sourced homes. And it’s the same as the air sourced homes. But, uh, we removed the fan. It is quieter. And, uh, we can install it completely in the indoor system. We can install it, uh, in the house.

And, uh, another, uh, Uh, another, uh, advantage. Uh, we know that the water source is the best performance, but it has a big issue how to supply the water when we use the, uh, late heat latent, uh, energy because we, uh, uh, absorb the energy from the water and turn it to the ice, the, the water, um, the water using eight times less than water source heat pump, and it has this kind of the heat pump has the advantage as the same as the air source heat pump as the in study, or the water, water source heat pump because we’re using the water, and it has the same as, same advantage of the water source heat pump. And we use the absorbing energy from the pipe.

Uh, for example, gas pipe and absorbing energy in the drain pipe, this system behaves same as a geothermal heat pump. And I think this system has the, uh, advantage of the air system, air source heat pump, geothermal heat source heat pump, and water source heat pump. Uh, this

just popped in my head. Going back to just the natural gas pipes.

Does it require any kind of updating to the system? Or are there any concerns about residual gas or like, are there any concerns about reusing a system like that?

We’ve been looking for those, Matt. We’ve been looking for them. We’ve been asking the question. Um, and so far we haven’t identified any, I mean, if most of the gas pipes now, the more recent ones, Are, um, plastic anyway, high density polyethylene, uh, so they’ve got absolutely no trouble at all in in managing water inside them.

If there were some old, um, iron pipes, there’s potentially, uh, a problem that they would have to be replaced probably, but, um, residual gas, I think would be gone very quickly. So, uh, there might be a purging operation and, uh, there’s, there are practical issues about this because you can’t turn the whole gas network over to water overnight so that you would have to do it by by sections.

But, you know, we’ve thought about that as well and we do believe that it is possible to have section by section parts of the gas network retasked, basically retasked to carry water.

As part of how you guys have been thinking about this. Have you also been kind of evaluating the broader scope of, like, how much it would cost to implement a system like this versus having the government go out and do something radically different?

Like what they’re doing in Framingham, like that district eating system is like, have you done comparisons of like why this is a compelling offer.

We are in that process and we do that does need to be done as as engineering academics. We might not be best to kind of advise on the, the sort of practical costs.

So how do you mobilize a fleet of people and get an organize and train them and so forth in order to make this conversion. So at this stage, I guess we’re still at the point of just proving out all the technical aspects so that then you can lift the lid on the cost aspect. But, you know, on the surface.

I think this is this. We’re applying the same principle here that we would to any engineering problem. You look at the most immediate things that look like showstoppers and you say, is that a showstopper? And if it isn’t, you carry on and you go step by step. And at the end of it all, you know, there is a cost issue.

Of course, it has to be driven by cost. You know, there’s. It is a cost issue. Ground source heat pumps, of course, we’d love to fit them. They’d be better in terms of technical performance. But not everybody has a garden and not everybody has access to, you know, a place that they can make a hole in the ground.

I love the idea of framing. I think that’s absolutely fabulous. You know, I think the UK is actually in a different place from most of the rest of the continent of Europe at the moment. In terms of the decision it made for how it was going to heat its homes because on the continent, there was much more take up for district heating solutions with centralized,

okay, they were, boilers in some cases, or combined heat and power units in some other cases, but there were centralized sources of heat distributed to properties through pipes. And that’s a really nice solution because it’s potentially compatible with swapping out the burning for a heat pumping. Whereas in the UK, we had the misfortune actually to discover, uh, natural gas in the North Sea in the 70s, or was it 60s?

I can’t remember about then. And so we had this, what was a very, very cheap resource to us at the time. It seemed logical to just power our heating with natural gas. But we’re in a different place from a lot of the continent now.

Right? I mean you’re it does sound like it’s more of a bespoke solution for the UK, but I could totally see this working in other areas because like. Where I am in the northeast of the United States Natural gas pipes to people’s homes is very common in this area of the country.

That’s not the case for Most of the country. Yeah, it’s very common for this area. So it’s like I could see that being a possible solution for some areas of around where I live, or I could see this being applicable for a cost effective solution that could be rolled out. But yeah, this is not something that you’re gonna be able to roll out everywhere, which also means I’m assuming this is more targeted towards urban environments where there’s a large network of natural gas pipes, because I’m assuming in more rural areas, they may not have those pipes.

Um, you’d be surprised. Uh, I mean, very, very, uh, remote properties don’t have natural gas running to the cost of running that pipe would be, would be very large, but it’s something like 95 percent of all the properties in the UK. So it’s not just in the middle of the city that we have it, you know, it’s all the suburbs have it, uh, as well.

It’s most, so when you go into the country and farms, individual farms. May not have a gas supply, but they’ve got the land for geothermal in any case so that they yeah, that would be a better solution We’re addressing that the kind of 95 percent of properties and it really is as big as that.

What are some of the technical hurdles that you came across getting this to this stage of your research?

So the ice generator is quite an interesting thing. There’s a lot of There’s a lot of prior art and by the way in case. This is a useful image to have in mind. Are you familiar with slush puppies? Do you have those in America?

Yeah, slushies. Yeah. Okay. So we’re

basically talking about a slushie maker, except that we need to make slush at a quite a prodigious rate.

So we have to pull heat out of water at quite a prodigious rate. And one of the things that you find is that you have to keep the ice very thin. Ice is continuously forming on a surface. And you really have to scrape it off quite quickly before it gets too thick, because ice is not a good conductor of heat.

So, uh, as soon as ice starts to build up, then you start, it starts to become very hard to suck heat anymore out of the water that’s next to the ice, because the heat has to pass through the ice that’s on the surface. So that means that you need a, you need a scraper or something like that to remove that ice really quite quickly.

And, um, there are such things, these exist, they’re industrial units called scraped surface ice makers, but we have to make it cheap. Uh, we have to make it reliable and, you know, uh, the, the interesting difficulty, well, one difficulty that we’ve had with the unit at the moment is that it needs to be a little bit compliant on the scraper because you want the scraper to always push gently against the wall, uh, never push too hard or else it will be, it will stick, um, uh, but never clear the wall or else the ice will build up, uh, at that point.

So you’ve got to have a sort of blade that’s, That’s constantly pushed against the wall and the, the unit that we have at the moment, in my opinion, now having experienced, uh, the, the first set of goes with it. It’s not flexible enough in the middle. We need a bit more compliance in it to make sure that it gently scrapes the wall all the time.

These are relatively mundane mechanical engineering challenges, uh, you know, it’s not rocket science, but yet you do have to go through the process of just trying it out.

Yeah. It sounds like solvable hurdles are what you’re kind of coming over entirely.

Entirely. Yeah. So, so, you know, the alternative to having a flexible scraper would be to machine the inside of the, the cylinder very, very accurately.

And it’s too expensive. So, you know, you’re in this constant engineering set of trade offs. Well, I, you know, I, I’d like to make it work very well, but I don’t want to spend much money making it, and I want to really buy a piece of aluminum tube. Aluminum is great. It’s a great conductor of heat. It’s really easy to work with, but buying a piece of aluminum tube with a really good bore, a center on it, a really round one is, uh, turns out to be a little hard.

Not cheap.

Yeah. You’re, you’re, you’re also acquainted to a slush puppy machine or here there’s a brand called Icee. That’s the same thing. It’s made it very clear to me, like what you’re talking about. I’m assuming this is not something you’d want to drink.

It’s non potable water, so no, you wouldn’t, but, but there wouldn’t be anything worse in it after it got frozen,

right?

Then there was before it, you know, so, so maybe there were a few insects and things like that in it and a few things walking around in the pipes that could went along and got frozen and then thawed out again after, after the ice maker. It’s, it’s not poisonous, you know, the, the, the circuit that has all the refrigerant in it is a closed circuit.

It doesn’t mix with the water. All of that stays inside the machine, same as it does in your heat pump Matt. Okay.

So are there any, I mean, this might be out of the purview of like what you’re doing, but like, do you, are you aware of any kind of like hurdles with regulations or trying to get this actually rolled out.

Are there certain things, hoops, you’d have to jump through for regulations?

There are still questions that we do have to to solve. I think it’s not so much a regulation issue. There was one question put to us by the water companies About the possibility that if we’re taking that much heat out of the water, some of this water gets mixed with foul water from toilets and so forth.

And then if you make that too cold, it’s not easy to treat. So that’s a calculation. We have to just make sure that we’re not causing too much cooling. Of that. And secondly, the existing gas network in the UK is, is, uh, it’s a huge transmission system. It’s like an electricity system as fat pipes in the middle that then found out to smaller pipes and then smaller, smaller pipes as they go down the distribution levels.

This will need to be much more localized. So, of course. We’re not going to transmit water from Scotland to England. We have plenty of water in England in the winter. It falls out of the sky very regularly, too much of it, in fact. So there would be a localized reservoir, not reservoirs, tanks, basically, that would have to contain water that would be supplied to houses.

Um, when it got cold.

Are there, what are the next steps for you guys in related related to this research? Like what are your like what’s the next year two years? Is there more work to be done? Like what’s next for this?

So, um, we’re going to finish this project this we have a funded project that runs until September and uh, we’re going to get our ice maker going really nicely and show people What they really probably already know, which is that it’s not difficult to make an icy or a slush puppy.

And, you know, we need to make, we need to convince people that it’s not noisy, it’s not unsafe, and it’s not unattractive. And then there’s a process of just introducing this gently into the, into the policy space. Because a lot of the policy thinking is locked into the idea that there are only two solutions in the UK possible for decarbonizing heat. One of them is heat pumps, heat pumps mostly, and the other 1 is burn hydrogen. You know, the, the set of options that’s considered primarily at the moment are those 2 or sometimes a little mixture of the 2 where you have a low rated heat pump. And you also have some hydrogen.

Just to pop it up to top it up when it’s really cold outside and the heat pump is not able to get the power. So we’re, it’s going to take a little bit of time for this to get into people’s minds. We have to bring the water companies with us. We have to bring the, the owners of the gas network with us, so the engineering research will be finished in September.

And after that, there’s a translation, which is probably beyond the skill set of a humble engineer. Anyway, we’ll get some other people on the job.

We try to propose a new concept based on the ice storage system for a hot country. Uh, in the new concept, we try to store the ice during the winter and using this ice in the summer for other cooling systems and for water, and we believe that this solution may be a solution for water scarcity, because we are storing this ice and using this water and ice for cooling and water in the hot season, and we believe that one solution, same as the ice solution, For example, they’re storing the, in the motion, I think, say that’s gallery, I forgot what the name is that.

And we are, we are working this concept to the, to each other for a hot country.

Okay, so this is definitely having a branching off in another direction with it to show how it could be used even more That’s that’s really cool. I love that. So I have two questions left for both of you. I’d love to get both of your takes on this What would you hope that viewers of this and listeners of this would take away from the kind of research you’re doing?

This specific thing like what do you hope they take away from this?

Oh, well, my broad answer to that is you, you need to keep an open mind that there are more technology solutions out there that the world is filled with technology skeptics who, who say, Oh, with batteries are too expensive, you know, windmill, the wind doesn’t blow all the time, and therefore you can’t have a renewable energy system, you know, and what they’re doing is assuming that the only solutions available are those ones that technologists have figured out in the past.

There are many more solutions possible than any of us can imagine you me rather it doesn’t matter and they’re out there and if we have the brilliance in engineering is about being able to recognize what is the problem because as soon as you put your finger on what the problem is. There’s a million great engineers out there who will give you 10 solutions each, uh, for that

problem.

What about you, Ramin? Like, what would you add to that?

I would agree, yeah.

My closing question for you guys is, Kind of advice. Uh, what advice would you give to like young researchers, engineers that are out there that are looking to make a similar impact in sustainable energy?

I’ll let Ramin go first on this one.

I have to be thinking.

Yes. Uh, my, mine is would be be ambitious. Uh, I think there’s an awful lot of work that is done on very, very small potential, uh, advantages. And the world is filled with many really big problems. Uh, and I think people should look up, you know, don’t strive for a 1 percent improvement in something. Ask for a 50 percent or 100 percent and then, and prove to yourself that it’s not possible.

And then if you, if 100 percent is not possible, settle for 50.

What advice would you give to a young researcher or engineer?

I usually, I advise my students working in each idea. If they think this idea, for example, is idiot or silly idea, when they work and try to develop this idea, maybe to reach the novel idea.

And, uh, many, uh, we, if we look, many, uh, innovation, maybe based, uh, start from the idiot or see the idea after the developing, reach to the high technology, solve the problem.

Awesome. Well, again, thank you to you both. I’m so glad I got a chance to talk to you about this because what Seamus like, what you just said about like, think big.

That’s kind of like. Why I cover what I cover on my channel. It’s like I’m just inspired by Gentlemen like yourselves, engineers like yourselves that are doing some incredible stuff to show all of us. Hey, wait We don’t have to do it that way that we’ve been doing it 50 years There’s a new way we can do things that is even better.

So I love it Thanks so much for taking the time.

Thank you very much for your time. That’s pretty

good.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Our thanks to Dr. Mehdipour and Professor Garvey for sitting down to talk to Matt. And thank you all for taking the time to watch their conversation. What did you think about this research?

Matt and I were talking about it before we started recording and I said, I believe the research is real, but it has such a weird mental dissonance that makes it hard to really wrap your head around what they’re talking about and believe that you’re not watching some form of three card Monty. What do you all think about this?

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Thank you so much, everybody for taking the time to watch or listen. We’ll talk to you next time