172: Visiting a Fusion Reactor – It’s About to Get Hot

Hey everybody. On today’s episode of Still To Be Determined, we’re gonna be talking about what type of donut is Matt’s favorite hint. It’s not jelly filled, it’s plasma filled. Hi everybody, as usual. I’m Sean Ferrell. I’m a writer. I write some stuff for kids and I write some sci-fi for adults. That includes my recently released the Sinister Secrets of Singe, a book that I am loathed to push, but my younger brother keeps saying, Hey, mention

it.

Mention it, push it.

Also, it’s available everywhere. So

please also to interrupt you, your, your book reading that’s coming up this week, so,

That’s right. I do have a book reading coming up on June 24th at McNally Jackson Seaport in Manhattan. That’s a Saturday. The reading is at noon. So if you have kids and they enjoy adventures with robots and pirates and all sorts of danger, please.

Do come by. It would be lovely to meet you and I’d be happy to sign books for whoever comes by. And of course with me is my brother Matt. He’s that Matt of undecided with Matt Ferrell, which gets these conversations going. And I don’t need to do more of an intro to that because if you’re here, you know about there.

How

you doing, Matt? I’m doing very well. I’m excited. I’m very excited about your book reading. I’m gonna be there too. Um, I’m very excited to see it. I see how people will

come. Still will show up.

Oh, Matt’s gonna be there. I still haven’t had a chance to start reading it myself. I finally, my wife’s copy of my wife stole my copy of the book because my book got in soon.

First. Yes, she stole it. Her copy just showed up. So I’m gonna finally start to be able to read it. So that’s yours cause. Yeah, we can’t share

books. Classic book swap. Exactly. Before we get into this week’s discussion, which is about Matt’s most recent video, which is about fusion technology, wanted to share some thoughts from some previous episodes like this one from episode 1 71, which was our talk about how people may or may not be getting fairly charged.

The entire discussion being, do people with solar affect the pricing for people without, and is that fair? There were comments like this from Rick Sherman who dropped in to say I do both, meaning being on and off grid. I installed a seven kilowatt solar unit to boost generation, and I have shift shifted to either natural gas or more efficient appliances to reduce consumption.

I agree that the electric company unfairly targets solar generation in Arizona, they claim that solar generating customers use the grid grid less. Therefore we’re not paying our fair share. So they hit us with an a demand fee. Yeah. I love the idea that their argument boils down to you’re not using this enough and that’s not fair.

Yep. That what

it’s like. So you don’t drive enough, you’re only driving 5,000 miles a year, so we’re gonna charge you with this extra money because you’re driving less than everybody else. We’re gonna charge you more

to repair the roads that you’re not using. Exactly. Hmm mm-hmm. And then there was this from Greg M, who dropped in to say, US government at all levels prioritizes corporations.

Above all else, the welfare of the people and the future of our planet are insignificant compared to corporate profits and the bank accounts of politicians. The only hope we have of getting anything done is if business can monopolize power generation and politicians get their cut. I do think this is pretty far at one end of.

Cynicism. Yeah. And I’m not telling Greg that he’s wrong, but I would just, I wanted to share this for one particular reason. There’s a sizeable percentage of the population that thinks this is what’s happening, right. And that’s a problem. It is. When you have people, voters, tax paying, citizens believing that nothing they do matters.

And there’s zero impact from the population on affecting policy that leads to a disengagement, which leads then to a reinforcing of the very problem that Greg may be pointing out, whether or not that problem actually exists. If individuals walk away from the table and the corporations are the only parties that stay and who do, who are the politicians gonna work with?

It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. So it is a, it does self reinforce. Yeah. So I share Greg’s thoughts not to say, yes, Greg’s on it. I don’t share Greg’s thoughts to say Greg’s wrong. I share Greg’s thoughts to say, this kind of thinking is real, and it has an effect on exactly these policies that we’re talking about.

Yeah. So my encouragement is for people to think. Is there a way to stay engaged, even if you’re as cynical as this comment is, which is to say, unless politicians are getting their cut from the corporations, nothing happens. Is there a way that you, on a local level, can push back against that idea? Yeah.

And then finally, I wanted to share this thought from Rojo Klaz, who weighed in on that commentary just to say, this is great. I wish you two would also cover the why I went geothermal for my Net Zero House. As I find your discussions of Matt’s videos really expand upon the original and I’m most excited about Matt’s home building projects, but keep up the great work.

Thank you Rojo Klaz for the kind comments and I wanted to share that, not because Matt and I enjoy patting ourselves on the back. If anybody knows me, they know one thing I do not like talking about is me. I share that comment because Yeah, we skipped over. Yeah, we did some episodes and the reason for that was we’ve entered that time of year timing where people are taking time off, people are traveling.

Visitations and traveling and doing a podcast does not usually mix very well. So Matt was very flexible around a period of time where I was less available and we figured out a way to keep a weekly schedule of videos without me having to record every single week the way we typically do. Having said all of that, that episode is one, Matt and I specifically.

One A return to. Yeah. We’re also talking

about good topic changing how we’re also talking about changing how we do these podcasts a little bit, where it’s not necessarily tied week to week with still to be determined, but maybe we group a couple videos together and have discussion around a couple of videos so we can kind of jump around topic based topic.

Still over into more than than one. Yeah. So all of that’s on the horizon. Rojo Glass. Thank you for dropping in with that comment. And it’s just a, a moment for me to say, keep tuning in because we are gonna circle back to a lot of those topics. Yep. Now on today’s episode, this is our discussion around Matt’s most recent video, which dropped on June 13th, 2003, how we’re going to achieve nuclear fusion, and this actually was one of the reasons why we had to do some rescheduling.

Yes. Anybody who’s paying attention noticed. Yeah. Matt, who lives in Western Massachusetts. He wasn’t in western Massachusetts. I was in the uk. He was in Jolly Old England. Yeah. Looking at a giant donut that was filled with hot plasma and the, the fusion research facility that you were, you were investigating, which is part of the jet.

Jet is the corporate entity, right?

No, it’s, it’s the UK Atomic Energy Authority. Right. And the facility I was at was the Colum Science Center, which has the Jet Tokamak and the Mast U Tokamak. And it’s also gonna start to have additional fusion things being built around it. Like First Light Fusion, which is a private company, is gonna be building a facility there too.

So it’s. They, they kind of cover all of it. It’s anything fusion related they’re doing there.

Right. So one of the things that popped out very early on was the sci-fi of all of this. This, oh, yeah. When you first walked into the room and you saw the size of the reactor, my first thought was, this looks like a scene out of a sci-fi movie where somebody has just walked into the engine room on a spaceship.

Yeah, it didn’t look like there was nothing identifiable. No. It’s like expect, I’m like, oh look, the do Hickey leads to the thing of a jig. The thing of a jig is connected to the wats, it, the watts, it is top pocketing away. And like who, what, how does any of this work? And then you go inside the porus. Yes.

And it looked designed by HR Geer. I couldn’t help but look at it and think like, Ripley’s gonna come running down this at any moment and the alien is gonna be right behind her. Um, how, this is just like a process question of making the, the video and how this all came together. I know some of these details, but I think our viewers and our listeners would be very interested.

How did you first stumble upon an invitation? To actually go to the uk this

and to the facility. This is kind of a, a roundabout way. I ended up going there couple years ago. I had done a video about Fusion and a gentleman from a company that’s called Astral Systems, which I have a video coming up on in a couple weeks.

He basically, he on background, I’ve been talking to him about Fusion, his views on fusion, getting feedback from him on different things and he had said to me, I can’t really tell you what I’m doing right now. It’s kind of top secret. It’s still in, in. Stealth mode, but when it does come out, I’ll let you know.

Well, he’s finally coming outta stealth and he said he had a call with me, talked about what we’re doing. He said, do you wanna come out and see it? And I was like, absolutely. And it’s in the uk. And so as we’re planning this trip, then he comes to me and says, Hey, the, we we’re discussing things with the UK EA and we told them that you were coming and they were open to having you come and check out.

Their facility at the Culham Science Center. And I was like, hell yeah. So they, he basically introduced me to somebody from their media relations team and we organized an entire day at the Culham Science Center. And then while I was out there, I also had had made connections with First Light Fusion and the CEO and founder Nick Hawker a couple years ago, a year and a half ago or so.

And I had an invite from them saying, anytime you’re out in Oxford, let us know and you can stop by. And so it was kind of like,

Oh, you were like, well when am I gonna be in Oxford? And then you find

yourself in Oxford and then it’s li I’m in Oxford at the Culham science center and I’m like, and I contacted them, said, I’m gonna be in the town.

Can I stop by? And they’re like, yeah, sure. So it like it turned in from me going out to see Astral, to Astral to come Science Center and First Flight. So it turned into kind of this like tour of making all these stops that are all kind of like closely located. It was kind of fun. That’s

terrific. Yeah. And when you.

Get there and go through, you know, the facility. Yeah. How much of that was, um, Like you’ve, you’ve done a lot of research on these, these technologies before, you know you have a good solid layman’s understanding of Yes. What is happening. And you’ve looked at videos and, and, uh, the research that includes images.

How much of this had you seen and had some sense of familiarity of what these things were and how they were fitting together and how much of this, when you got there, you were like, I had no conception of what this was.

It’s like when it comes to like a Tokamak. It’s like I have a good, like you said, layman’s understanding.

It’s like I understand the basics of how this stuff works. Mm-hmm. And understand the Tokamak designs and accelerators and all that kind of stuff, but understanding what it is and seeing photos of it versus seeing the size and scope of it. Yeah. It, it was just like there was a complete disconnect for me.

Same thing with the robotics that they were doing. Cause I saw, I went to race while I was at the Culham Science Center. It’s like I knew that they had like robotic systems. But I had no idea the extent to which the research that they were doing encapsulated. So it was like, it’s like, um, I think from a layman’s point of view, you have like a very skin deep, like level of knowledge or not knowledge, ways that you can kind of conceptualize what’s actually happening.

It’s like at a surface level, I get it. And then you go and you see it and you’re like, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. This goes way deeper than I actually thought for how much they’re actually doing. Yeah, yeah. For

the taurus that you were in, it looked like, did you have a sense of what the diameter I. Of the Taurus was, it looked like maybe you were as tall as halfway up, like maybe.

Yeah,

it was. It was maybe 12 feet. I’m gonna use feet. I’m gonna use feet. I’m sorry. People who talk on meters. I’m from America. I would probably say it felt like 15, 12 to 15 feet. Mm-hmm. Bottom to top. Cause I was on a walkway that actually elevated me from the very bottom. So my guess would be 15 feet.

But that’s deceptive because the Tokamak I was in didn’t have all of the inner lining. So the inner lining would eat into that more. Right. So, Based on what I was seeing, it looked like it might be like a 10 foot. Diameter once everything’s installed. Right. Uh,

so yeah. So the inner lining was just the one section as you and the tourist, the the woman who was leading you through the tour?

Yeah. Yeah. Was she the, was she a publicity person? Was she one

of the researchers? Yeah, she’s one of the engineers. She actually works on iter, which is the gigantic Tokamak that’s being built in France. Yeah. She actually works on that. Okay. But she’s part of the UK EA, so she was, yeah, she does work there.

But she was the one giving the tour. She, you,

you and she were in a full scale duplicate of the actual reactor. Yes. Identical. Yeah. But only one of the partitions was actually complete the way it would be in the full scale reactor. All

almost. It was like it had everything it needed that one thing. It was missing as the like there are these, um, It’s like, I don’t know what it’s made of, but it’s like these like little shield pieces.

There’s only a couple of those on, so that was the only thing that was missing in the ring. Right. But that one wedge was an actual wedge from that would, that could be used as a spare in the actual facility.

And roughly how many people are part of this research? Oh man, if you know, you know, engineering side versus physicist

side, I don’t, I don’t know that number offhand, but you’re talking at Culham Science Center, it’s thousands of people work there.

Right? Thousands.

And it really seemed like it was a global representation. Yeah. On the research side, you were talking with people from different parts of the world, not necessarily UK citizens. It seemed like they were, they were. From all over the place now, living and working here in the uk.

Yeah, it’s definitely a global initiative.

Jet specifically is the joint European Taurus. So even though it’s at the Culham Science Center, it’s a joint effort between like Italy and France and different European countries all have a hand and the research of Jet. Yeah. And operating it, even though it’s at the Culham Science Center. So that’s part of the reason why it’s like I was talking to Fulveo, who’s Italian, and it’s like there’s.

Definitely a world representation from mm-hmm. Everybody, uh, with the research team, engineering teams, everything.

And I’m gonna talk very briefly about the AI component of all this, because I know that you and I have talked about AI before, and we’ll talk about AI again. You have more work coming up in the AI sphere.

One of the things I thought was really fascinating about your discussion around how AI is works in this and the robotic, the robotization of this in the future. Um, on the one hand, the robotization. I really enjoyed the description from one of the leads to say we’re trying new things. We may do something once and never do it again.

So to go through the process of programming robots to do things in a particular way Yeah. Would be wasted effort. Yeah. And I really, that kind of like. Kind of put it right back in the human’s laps of like, yeah, you’re gonna have to, somebody’s gonna have to get on that forklift and they’re gonna have to move that thing.

And then somebody else has to use those little robot arms and do the, the whole video game thing that you, you demonstrated. Which it really, if ever there was a defense of me playing video games, I think it’s gonna have to be, well, you never know if I’m gonna end up going into nuclear research in the future.

Exactly.

That’s how I felt when I was, when I first picked up, I was in the little room with the VR version that I was using. Yeah. When I first picked up, I was like, this is the best video game I’ve ever played. It was like I immediately took to it because it just felt so natural with all the games that I’ve played my entire life.

So it’s like, yes, I feel like it was like the last Star Fighter to me. It was like, oh, this is the, this is it. It’s like I found, I found my, I found my skillset. This is great.

Yeah. Like you just beat the video game and all these people showed up and they’re like, all right, we needed the help with this nuclear reactor earlier.

Yeah.

Ready? You need to help save the universe. Yeah.

The, the AI component of it, though, I thought was an interesting, it was almost like a peak into the future in the sense of what do we mean when we say ai? Yeah. And you and I. It’s no surprise. I, I mean, to go back to Hawking, my book, the Sinister Secrets of Synge, it is about a mad scientist who builds robots that threaten to destroy a city, and there is questions of ai, AI involvement, trust in ai, and the kids who have this adventure have to learn how to work with the robot.

Intelligence that is not inter interacting well with humanity. So this is something I think about a lot. This is something you and I have talked about a lot and as I just described the story, it, I think is a way that most people, a lot of people conceive of ai. When we say ai, we think of chatbots, we think of home assistants who become.

Members of the family in air quotes, we talk about C3 PO. And R2D2, you’re talking to one of the lead researchers here. So you were talking with Fernando Ramini about AI’s involvement in this research and it really did kind of, I, I kind of sat back and kind of digested what she was saying because I suddenly realized that I instinctively always think of AI as, okay, now there’s an artificial intelligence.

That we are interacting with as. Almost partnering with as an individual in a way, and that kind of conception and the kind of fear that that brings. Yeah. From a lot of people, and you and I have chatted briefly about this in the past about its impact on everything from what does it mean to be a lawyer, to, what does it mean to be a writer?

Artists, like if AI is going out and scooping up stuff and regurgitating this stuff, what does it do to humans involvement in our own world? And here was something which was, yeah, we’re using AI because we can run through real time conceptions, multiple versions of the research all at the same time. And so artificial intelligence in that capacity does seem to me wildly different from.

I’ve got this robot assistant who walks up to me and I say, oh, don’t forget to go make the bed and make me some coffee. Yeah. And I want lunch at one. And it says, yes, master, and then toddles off to go do that. What we’re talking about is the ability to say to a computer, given the current setup of all this tech, run through various permutations of feed of, you know, power sources to see what the largest output possible is, and having the computer run through that.

And say, right. Oh, it’s this, it’s these two numbers are the ones you’re looking for. How much of that do you think, as I’ve just described, it is accurate? And how much of that do you think is what is not clearly perceived by the public in the current AI discussions that we have going on in media. Okay.

So it’s definitely not perceived well by the public.

Second thing is you’re not completely accurate and it’s not your fault. We, I do it too. I refer to it as ai. You refer to it as ai. It is actually not artificial intelligence, it’s just machine learning. Right. Also referred to as ml. That’s what we’re seeing right now. It’s all ML chat G. PT is ml. It’s not ai.

Um, it’s, if you wanna think about chat, G P T, it’s just, it’s using what’s called transformer model. So it’s like autocorrect on your phone, on steroids. I think you mean autobot. Sorry, let’s roll anyway. It’s Autocorrected on your phone. Yes. Autocorrected on your phone. It’s like that on steroids. So instead of just looking at what the next word is, it’s looking at the entire sentence and it’s using, because it’s looked at all written language and around the world and it knows what patterns.

Happen when you use this combination of words together, this next thing is most likely, yeah, that’s all it’s doing. That’s all it’s doing. There’s no intelligence behind it. It’s just a pattern matching machine that’s essentially the same thing that’s being used, kind of not transform model, but that kind of similar idea is what’s happening here in fusion.

They, they’ve plugged in all these kind of algorithms and physics models, and the machine has learned what those physics models behave like when you do certain things. And so what they’re doing is they’re saying, what if we increase the energy input by this and we, and we had this different kind of design for the inner ring of the Tokamak.

What would the physics look like if we do that? And the machine can pump through that thousands of permutations. Right in a fraction of the time versus what that we used to have to do, which would be you actually build it and you try it and you’re like, ah, crap, that didn’t work. And then you have to tear it down and rebuild a new version.

Right. So it’s like, it is. When I was talking to Fernanda, I had a similar conversation with Nick Hawker from First Light. I’ve talked to the folks over at Healion Fusion. I’ve talked to numerous people in the fusion industry and. AI as we’re discussing here, or ML comes up all the time in all of these because all of them bring up how, like they’ve tested out thousands of different designs on a specific element of their system to nail down what they think might work best.

And then the one, the machine that they’ve determined is, that looks like the most winning model. Let’s actually build that one. Test it,

see what it does.

Get all the data from that and you plug the new data that you learned from the actual physical representation back into the models again, and then you iterate again.

So it’s allowing them to iterate so fast. It’s, it’s one of the reasons why the joke of fusion energy always being 30 years away feels. Now very outdated. And for people on the outside looking in and saying, oh, it’s never gonna happen. It’s a waste of time. It’s a waste of energy. Even do this stuff, it’s what’s never gonna happen is a complete lack of understanding as to how things like machine learning are impacting the research around fusion.

It’s, it’s, it’s profound. It’s profound for everything. Medicine. It doesn’t matter what you’re talking about because they can, it’s part of the reason the company’s like Helion and First light fusion. Are so bullish on their timeline for how they think they, they can get to, uh, proving a demonstrator facility in the next five to 10 years.

The reason that they’re so confident on that is where they are now is kind of astounding and how fast they got to where they are now. It’s kind of mind blowing and a lot of it is unlocked because of machine learning, right. So it’s. It, it’s, it, it’s revolutionizing everything and it’s, it’s kind of crazy.

So it’s like, I think most of us, and I include myself in this, we don’t understand exactly what machine learning or AI is. Yeah. And so what we think of it is, is wrong. Yeah. And how it’s actually getting used and the tool that it is, is unlocking incredible potential in every industry around the world.

It’s, yeah, it’s kind of astonishing. Yeah.

I keep thinking as you’re talking about pre and post. Major assistive systems. Yeah. The, you know, research that went into Atomic Energy pre-computer era, same research, post computer era, would look wildly different and would move at a much faster pace. But we don’t have to do that because we already have.

The atomic research. So we judge current models of research based on older models of research, while not understanding that the tools being used are having that level of dramatic impact. Exactly. And if you were to say to somebody, well, how long do you think it’s gonna take us to get to Fusion? Exactly.

And they’re gonna say, will never happen. And you say, well, what if I were to tell you that all the years of research into atomic fission. Yeah, would’ve been shortened to 10% if we had just had an IBM computer in the room. Like that’s the kind of impact I think you’re describing.

Exactly. It’s an order of magnitude improvement for speed.

It’s part of the reason why it’s like, okay, the first 30 years of fusion research took th this long to get from here to here. And today, if we did that same thing, it would take six months. You know what I mean? It’s, it’s that kind of a thing where it’s like it’s really compressing the time, um, for our understanding of the, the last things we have to figure out around fusion.

Um, it’s, it’s accelerating. It’s the hockey stick of Yeah. Is just the way it’s improving. It’s just getting faster and faster. Yeah. So who knows how long that timeline’s gonna be before we actually get actual fusion energy on the grid. I’m not predicting that, but it’s like, yeah, it’s shorter than you think because of things like ml,

right?

Yeah. That comment that you just made leads perfectly. Yeah. Into the comment I wanted to share from one of your viewers, Scott wrote, if fusion reactors are gaining momentum, including small scale reactor prototypes are large scale solar farms still a viable long-term business strategy. For example, would investment in large scale solar installments pay off before fusion becomes mainstream?

I have a feeling I know. What kind of answer you’ll give. Yeah, but I’ll let you give it on your own.

The answer is 100% yes. There is no one solution to rule them all here. It’s like if you fast forward 50 years, let’s say Fusion does exist, then. Fusion will be living alongside solar, wind, hydro. It’ll be a part of a mix.

It’s not, fusion is not gonna wipe out the industry for solar or wind. It’s not, it’s gonna take a very long time for fusion to ever become a meaningful percentage of the mix just because of just the nature of rolling it out. It’s gonna be expensive at first and it’ll get cheaper over time and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah. So it’s, it’s decades and decades away from it being a. Meaningful anything. I mean, we still have to get to the point where it’s like, yeah, it works. Then from that point adopting, it’s gonna take a long time. Yeah. So it’s like solar will pay for itself. So investing now is not an issue. In fact, my next video I.

Which will be coming out by the time this is out. I actually bring that up. I go into the numbers of like how much money isn’t being invested right now into fusion versus how much money is being invested into all other renewables. And if you wanna talk about, like, if you’re worried about where money goes and where investment should go, the amount of money spent being spent in Fusion is just like, if you put in a graph, it would look like a just a line.

Then it’s just this massive bar for how much money is being spent on every other form of energy. So, right. This is, we’re still at the research phase, so it’s like there is plenty of time for solar wind to really kind of become rooted and become a major part of the

mix. I think we also become handcuffed to our imagination and imagined visions in the form of like television and movies and stuff like that of how one thing becomes the thing.

Yeah. Presented in the future, and I’m thinking of like you mentioned Fusion and the research and somebody out there is like, oh yeah. And back to the future when they have the fusion converter in the car. Yeah. And it’s like, yeah, that’s not around the corner. That’s no. The idea that we will have vehicles powered by fusion reactors.

No, no, that’s, that’s not, nobody’s gonna be driving around in a nuclear fusion reactor on the highway anytime soon.

Well, if, if I’m a betting man, I would say the places that you’ll most likely see initial fusion facilities or like small modular reactors are starting to become a thing now for just nuclear fission.

The places you’re gonna probably start to see these first. Are gonna be industrial sites. It’s not gonna be necessarily for a public grid. So think about some massive data center that uses megawatts of energy every month. Yeah, they just plunk a little fusion reactor there and they’ve got their power supply.

Self-sufficient for themselves for the next eon, right? It’s like that’s where you’re gonna start to see it first. Cuz they’ve got the deepest pockets, they can afford the most expensive thing up front and they can justify that cost. And so as those industry players start to sprinkle out these smaller systems, it’s gonna be kicking the tires, working out the kinks, and then we’ll start to see it kind of flourish into more of the public grid.

And I, and the reason I think that is, I can’t tell you how many startups I’ve talked to, not just fusion, but other startups, energy startups, and they all are starting. With industry because there’s deeper pockets, there’s a, there’s more willingness to take risk and that higher cost makes more sense. And then it also requires less red tape politically for a public grid, cuz there’s a certain lack of risk that they wanna do for a public utility on the grid.

Well, not my backyard

of it all is gonna push back hard on any of this. But if it’s a Amazon facility in the middle of nowhere, Utah. Exactly. And they’re like, yeah, we’re gonna build this here. And nobody knows exactly. Nobody cares. It’s our space and we can do what we want. Oh, that’s really the background on how these videos take place I think is, is very often fascinating.

But, The speculation in the form of questions like Scott’s are also a great way to interact with this new information. So thank you, Scott, for your comment and a reminder to everybody jump into the comments here or jump into the comments on Matt’s main channel. Your comments really do drive the content of this program and his con and his program and the kinds of connections that he was describing and how he ended up in the UK touring.

This thing is largely because of. Stuff that formed around conversations and people involved in the conversations with him on his main channel. So don’t forget to jump in there. If you’d like to support us in another way, you can leave a review on YouTube, apple, Spotify, wherever it was you. Listen to this, go back there, leave a review.

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